Best-selling author, historian and broadcaster Professor Tracy Borman OBE chats to Sue Crawford about her forthcoming tour Tudors on Tour

What do you find so fascinating about the Tudors?

It’s the soap opera that keeps me coming back; the endless drama and the larger-than life personalities. So much happened during this 118-year period. It transformed England from a medieval kingdom to an early modern state. It’s for good reason that they are still so popular. You have the King who marries six times, the Virgin Queen, it’s the age of the Armada and Shakespeare; there’s so much going on.

Why are you embarking on a nationwide tour?

There’s so much drama with the Tudors you literally couldn’t make it up. I was really keen to bring even more drama by making a show about it. I spend my whole life talking about the Tudors, so this is just taking it to another level. And I always wanted to get out and work in popular history, rather than be an academic. I’m interested in communicating history to lots of people of all ages and backgrounds.

What would you say to people who think a show about history must be quite dull?

I hear that a lot. People say: ‘oh, I hated it at school because it’s all about dates.’ I’m aiming for this to be the very opposite of dull. There are so many fascinating, comedic and tragic moments with the Tudors. It’s got all the drama of a Netflix show.

Tell us a bit about what audiences can expect…

Because it’s called Tudors on Tour it will have a rock band on tour feel to it. It’s not just me standing on stage giving a talk - it’s a proper show, so there’ll be film footage, props and ‘80s pop music. It’s fun, informative, engaging and interactive. It will appeal to people who like an entertaining evening out and it will also be good for history enthusiasts and GCSE and ‘A’ level students It’s relatable and structured thematically around crime and punishment, private life, dressing for court, biggest mistakes, finest hours and myths. The show really encompasses the sheer drama of the Tudor period.

Talking of myths, it’s said that the Tudors stank…

They took pride in their personal hygiene. They tended not to wash their bodies, but they washed their underclothes a few times a day. Also, there are myths about the monarchs. Henry VII was the first Tudor. He’s not the most fun on paper and was said to be a miser, but he could flash the cash when he needed to. In the first two years of his reign alone, he spent the equivalent of £3m, just on his own wardrobe. This will be a big theme in the show - telling people what the Tudors were like in private and taking the audience behind closed doors.

What about the story that you could smell Henry VIII from quite some distance away, is that one true?

I’m afraid so. You could smell him from three rooms away. He had a jousting accident in 1536 and sustained a bad injury to his leg. It became ulcerated. Basically, he was a man in pain for the next 11 years until his death in 1547.

Wasn’t he an elite sportsman before that?

He was a world-class tennis player – he practised for hours. He was also an elite athlete at hunting, jousting, archery and bowling. He really was an impressive man and cut a fine figure. He was over 6ft tall and very good looking when he came to the throne, but then it all went downhill. Because he was in pain he couldn’t exercise and he gained weight rapidly. From 1536 to 1541 he put on 17 inches around the waist, so his waist measured 50 inches. We know that from the suits of armour that are now in The Tower of London. You can see them getting bigger each year. The weight exacerbated the ulcerated leg, and it became more painful to walk on. As he’s in pain that’s when he becomes a bit of a tyrant. I wouldn’t say it excuses his behaviour, but it maybe gives you a little bit of sympathy with him.

What first sparked your fascination with the Tudors?

I’ve loved them since I was doing my A’ Levels in Lincoln. It was all thanks to my history teacher who lit up the Tudor world. She had portraits of the Tudor court around her classroom and she told stories. What she got across was, yes, they might be these famous monarchs, but they’re all human beings and human nature doesn’t change that much over the centuries. She brought them to life for me, and I was hooked from that day forward. I’m 54, so that’s almost 40 years ago and I’m still coming back for more. My passion for the Tudors shows no sign of abating.

You could smell him from three rooms away. He had a jousting accident in 1536 and sustained a bad injury to his leg. It became ulcerated.

When did you first become interested in history?

From the get-go. I grew up in Lincoln, which is a beautiful historic city; it was one of the foremost cities in England during the Medieval period. I would say it’s almost impossible to grow up in Lincoln and not love history, because you’re surrounded by it. My very first job was dressing up as a Victorian jailer and showing people around Lincoln Castle prison. I used to have great fun locking tourists away in the cell. It was in my teenage years that I became a history nerd.

Is it possible to make history cool, or will it always be seen as a bit nerdy?

I think it is cool. And social media has revolutionised it, so you don’t necessarily have to study for lots of years and publish academic papers and books. If you’ve got a passion for history, you can communicate it by making a TikTok video or posting on Instagram. It’s a great way of bringing younger audiences to history. I don’t think it is quite the stuffy subject that so many people complain about from their school days.

Are you now a TikTok historian yourself?

I’m on all the social media sites, although I can’t claim to be one of the best at creating videos. My daughter does it in seconds and it takes me hours! But I am learning.

Is it true that your daughter was named after a Medieval Queen?

Yes. I always thought that if I had a daughter, I’d call her Elizabeth, because Elizabeth I is my all-time favourite Queen. But she’s named after Eleanor of Aquitaine. I was reading a novel about her when I was pregnant and I thought she sounded quite a feisty woman, so I chose Eleanor instead.

You got married 11 years ago at The Tower of London. What was that day like?

It was amazing. The reason I wanted to get married in the chapel there was that I’d just written my biography of Thomas Cromwell and he’s buried there, as is Anne Boleyn and Thomas More and two queens of England. The Who’s Who of Tudor England are buried in that chapel. You might say that’s not very romantic, but it is for me! It was the most magical day. Two of the Beefeaters were my ushers, so the photos were great.

Does your husband share your passion for history?

Ironically, he works in a job that’s all about the future. He works in political risk. I’m always looking back and he’s always looking forward. That said, he has been very tolerant of my history career, and he now willingly goes to history lectures, so I think I’ve made a convert.

Do you like to spend your holidays looking at historical buildings?

I do. I don’t always get to do it however, as I have a teenage daughter who sort of likes history, but would rather be on a beach, so compromises have to be made. I frequently get eye rolls. At the moment she’s doing her GCSEs. She’s studying Elizabethan history, but she won’t let me help her, because she says: ‘it’s not the sort of history that you know mum.’ I’m often put firmly in my place by my daughter!

There’s so much drama with the Tudors you literally couldn’t make it up.

Is it true that your dog is called Cromwell?

Yes. More evidence of my obsession with this remarkable Tudor politician. Although you do feel a bit stupid shouting ‘Cromwell!’ when you’re in the park!

Is there a modern-day equivalent of the Tudors?

Possibly the Kardashians. The Tudors were the celebrities and trendsetters of their day. They were aspirational. People thought - if only we could be like the Tudors, just as young women today try to be like one of the Kardashians; nothing really changes. The Tudors were the people that everybody wanted to know about. The court was the social centre of the kingdom, so everybody wanted a piece of it and to know what the King was having for breakfast, or what Queen Elizabeth I was wearing. She was said to have 6,000 dresses in her wardrobe. The Tudors were big fans of self-portraits which were their equivalent of the selfie and Elizabeth passed a law controlling her image, so it was illegal to produce a portrait of her that she hadn’t sanctioned. It was a brilliant tactic, because if you look at the portraits she never ages. I think she would have been the Queen of Instagram today, she would have been all over social media with the filters.

Are there any other parallels?

Quite a lot. A woman like Anne Boleyn is very relatable. I think that’s why she’s the most popular of Henry VIII’s wives today. She was far ahead of her time. She wasn’t prepared to conform to society’s expectations. And also, Catherine Howard, another of the six wives. Today we would probably look at her through the lens of the #MeToo movement, but for centuries she’s been seen as this harlot who committed adultery and seduced all these lovers. Now we’re starting to re-assess her and realise she probably didn’t have all that much agency in any of these liaisons. Also, the backbiting at Westminster has parallels in the Tudor court.

You famously appeared on TV in an episode of Who Do You Think You Are? helping the actor Danny Dyer discover that he was related to Henry VIII’s close adviser Thomas Cromwell. What was that experience like?

It was one of the most memorable days of my whole career. He was fantastic. What you see is what you get with Danny Dyer; he is as he appears to be on television. We spent the day together at Hampton Court and then moved over to the Tower of London. I loved seeing how much Cromwell’s story resonated with Danny. Cromwell wasn’t born to greatness, and he rose from being the son of a blacksmith to being the most powerful man in England. Danny particularly enjoyed it when I told him that Cromwell was made Earl of Essex. I ended up learning about Cromwell through Danny’s eyes, because he was interpreting some of Cromwell’s actions and saying: ‘oh well, I wonder if it was because of that.’ And I thought: ‘yeah, I hadn’t thought of that.’ So, it was a two-way street, and he was wildly entertaining, very funny and very enthusiastic. I loved that in the days after filming he made Cromwell his profile picture on social media for a while. That was pretty cool!

...Elizabeth passed a law controlling her image, so it was illegal to produce a portrait of her that she hadn’t sanctioned. It was a brilliant tactic, because if you look at the portraits she never ages.

Do you have any more TV shows coming up?
I’m filming a new series of Inside the Tower of London to come out in the autumn. It’s season 10, so it’s one of the longest-running shows on Channel 5. It’s a wonderful way of communicating stories. And the great thing about filming at the Tower of London is you’re never going to run out of history, because there’s a thousand years of it.

Would a visitor to your house immediately realise that you are a historian?

It’s a mixed bag because my husband likes modern art and photography, so we battle for wall space. I have a portrait of Cromwell in my living room and going up the stairs, I have pictures of British courtier Henrietta Howard and Anne of Cleves, who was my favourite of Henry VIII’s six wives, plus a montage of all the kings and queens of England. Elizabeth I is in my downstairs loo.

Why is Elizabeth I your favourite monarch?

Everybody loves an underdog. She wasn’t supposed to come to the throne at all – she was the daughter of Henry VIII’s scandalous second wife Anne Boleyn, who was executed when Elizabeth was less than three. And yet, she became the Virgin Queen of legend, and we still celebrate her well over 400 years after her death, as being one of the greatest monarchs we’ve ever had. A figure who triumphs in the face of adversity always gets my vote.

You are Chief Historian at Historic Royal Palaces, is it correct that your office is inside Hampton Court Palace?

Yes. I’ve worked there for 18 years and I still pinch myself. I’m in the room that used to be the nursery of Henry VIII’s son Edward VI. We knew he had a silver cot and priceless toys and schoolbooks encrusted with jewels. That’s quite special. I do give him a thought or two as I’m sitting answering my emails.

Do you like some of the modern ways of re-telling history, such as Horrible Histories and Six the Musical?

I’m a super fan of Horrible Histories. It’s brilliant at getting across history in a fun and funny way. I’m also a fan of Six the Musical. That surely takes the prize for making history cool. It was written by two Cambridge history graduates, so the history is impeccable, but it’s like The Spice Girls meets the wives of Henry VIII. It’s brilliant and I must confess I’ve seen it 12 times. I’m a groupie of Six the Musical! At Historic Royal Palaces we’ve just done a collaboration with the cast, to try to encourage schools to look afresh at how they teach the six wives, so that they put more focus on the women and less on the dodgy bloke they all married.

Which Tudor monarch sentenced most people to death?

Henry VIII. His daughter Mary has the worst reputation. She has the nickname Bloody Mary, because she ordered the horrific burning of almost 300 Protestant heretics. She was famously very Catholic, and it was believed that if you were burnt it purged the soul, so she thought she was saving these people from eternal damnation by having them burnt. But Henry VIII sent far more people to their deaths than Mary did, and he’s not called Bloody Henry. We don’t really know how many, but it ran into the thousands.

What’s your bedtime reading?

Reading for pleasure is always fiction for me, because I read so much non-fiction when I’m researching, so I like to switch off. I read a lot of historical fiction, but I also love Ruth Jones and Clare Chambers – they’re such page-turners - I don’t like to work too hard when I’m reading for fun. In the same way I don’t watch high-brow TV at all. My favourite programme is The Traitors. I love it and I’m now watching every variation!

A figure who triumphs in the face of adversity always gets my vote.

How do you unwind away from work?

Dog-walking is my big thing. I love it and I do it every day, come rain or shine. I also love baking cakes; it’s my dream to go on Bake Off. If I’d had an alternative career I’d have owned a cake shop.

You’ve just published a novel, the best-selling The House of Boleyn. Was it nice to be able to make things up for a change, rather than just dealing in facts?

It was. Especially with the Boleyns, where so many myths and legends have arisen around them. Anne was variously described as a concubine and a witch, and it was said that she had a sixth finger on one hand and that she seduced the King by witchcraft. She’s been vilified and celebrated in equal measure. I wanted to get to the heart of Anne, and it was an absolute joy and a privilege to inhabit her world for a while and try to see things through her eyes.

How often do you think about the Tudors?

Not a day goes by when I don’t think about the Tudors. It’s definitely an obsession. It’s my ambition to get through a whole day without saying ‘Anne Boleyn’. I don’t think I’ve managed it in nearly 40 years. She comes up a lot and obviously now I’ve made that worse by writing a book about her!

What is the question you are asked most by members of the public?

Either: ‘Who killed the princes in the Tower?’ Or: ‘Was Elizabeth I really a virgin?’ I’m not convinced we will ever know the answers for sure. I have my opinions, but you’ll have to come along to the tour to find out!

Tudors on Tour opens at Buxton Opera House on October 1. For tickets and information on all venues and dates go to: www.tracybormanlive.co.uk